Global Innovator

PSH vs. Energy Vault - who is the winner

videos simulating Energy Vault
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=energy+vault&FORM=HDRSC3

https://energyvault.com/

Energy Vault looks to be based on the Biblical Myth of Tower of Babel

but I would like to know your opinion, how to build private, micro scale Pumped Storage Hydropower System for use at home.

How to calculate efficiency and how much water should be pumped up to let water turbine to generate energy to meet daily energy consumption.

thank you
21 Replies

Ideal Brain
First thing, someone did take lot of time to Bust the Energy Vault here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIhCuzxNvv0

Building PSH for home use is not viable idea. Using Windmill/Solar Cells and Battery is cheaper option. Solar goes on top of your roof. Windmill needs to be about 8 ft diameter about 100 ft above ground and Battery bank. All this will make you live off grid for forever.

Purpose of PSH is very different and you cannot bash it because it is the best reliable way to store energy at the moment.

Global Innovator
I am just building Pumped Storage Hydropower System for private use
exactly following the idea of Energy Vault by Vault Inc.

Energy Vault is still virtual project and may stay as such for years as alike great project by Elon Musk, called HyperLoop.

Small-scale Pumped Storate Hydropower System serves as a proof-of-concept, risk-free, investment free (pocket money involved)
real project, which can be tested, studied, copied for free by others.

Home Pumped Storage Hydropower System can be called Water Battery and can be charged by solar panels, wind turbines.

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

"In Greek mythology Sisyphus or Sisyphos (/ˈsɪsɪfəs/; Ancient Greek: Σίσυφος Sísuphos) was the king of Ephyra (now known as Corinth). He was punished for his self-aggrandizing craftiness and deceitfulness by being forced to roll an immense boulder up a hill only for it to roll down when it nears the top, repeating this action for eternity. Through the classical influence on modern culture, tasks that are both laborious and futile are therefore described as Sisyphean (/ˌsɪsɪˈfiːən/).[2]

"Punishment in the Underworld

As a punishment for his trickery, Zeus made King Sisyphus roll a huge boulder endlessly up a steep hill.[7][13][14] The maddening nature of the punishment was reserved for King Sisyphus due to his hubristic belief that his cleverness surpassed that of Zeus himself. Zeus accordingly displayed his own cleverness by enchanting the boulder into rolling away from King Sisyphus before he reached the top, which ended up consigning Sisyphus to an eternity of useless efforts and unending frustration. Thus it came to pass that pointless or interminable activities are sometimes described as Sisyphean. King Sisyphus was a common subject for ancient writers and was depicted by the painter Polygnotus on the walls of the Lesche at Delphi.[15]

So either Energy Vault or my Home PSH can be called Sisyphean activities, as any other battery system.

Tower built of concrete blocks can easily crash one day.

Home PSH is safe since any risk can be contained.

Home PSH is pocket money investment as a proof-of-concept

Ideal Brain
Why do you want to spend money on this when actual prototypes are available in real world?
See any water tank, which is available in most of the Cities (Municipal water supply system). You can calculate the amount of energy required to pump that water to that level and then amount of energy it can generate. It's simple calculation. You don't have to spend money in verifying how it would work.
Also your home based PSH won't be making more/usable energy. Battery charging is better option for you.
Building PSH for home use is Costly, Risky and Insecure.
You can calculate the energy production by taking the Head height, volume flow etc into account.

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
Building PSH for home use is a challenge.

PSH is the only model of battery type featuring flexible capacity or a capacity, which can be easily upgraded or doubled.

Have you every tried to charge 100Ah 12V car battery with 10W solar charger ?

My friends have plans to invest $1M+ in the development, production and installation of PSH type Water Battery Systems for Homes.

Ingenious technology, having great future.

hint: flexible capacity, which can be easily expanded

PSH for Home is the only type of water battery which can be charged in full
if you only can pump some volume of water at the head height.

Ok, call it Innovative Water Capacitor

No Li-Ion, Pb , gel ... battery compares to PSH for Home
Tagged: Ideal Brain

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
Before spending money I'd suggest you to run the calculations for size, energy and economics of the problem on paper.
Compare it against each other. If you wish you can share with us and educate us how great is your thought process.

I'm sure lot of people will chime in, when they see the numbers...

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
#FlexibleCapacityWaterBattery compares to nothing known from the battery world

This unique feature makes it worth every penny invested.

You claim lower efficiency vs. direct battery charging
Ok, but building Water Tower at Home can serve 3 purposes at the same time.

1. Water retention (water tank)
2. Heat accumulator ( water can be warmed by solar panels, solar collectors, sun tower
3. Potential energy accumulator

Look at $100M investment by SoftBank in Energy Vault

Concrete blocks can be transported up or down only
no water retention to combat #heatwave time
no heat accumulation.

You are very well educated to join
PSH for Home Challenge
one day.
Tagged: Ideal Brain

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
If you post numbers, then people will show interest. Otherwise imagination have Zero value in this world.

Vault Concept is good project, when it comes to life, then it will be great.

For now we all wait for your numbers. We cannot think big as you can. Only numbers / neck to neck comparison will make us realize it. Our imagination cannot get as good as yours.

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
"Vault Concept is good project, when it comes to life

could you kindly explain me what is good in Vault Concept ?

Building a tower is like pumping water in Water Tower
but look at the cranes, how do you expect any energy to be ever generated ?

nothing explained yet

If a multiplicity of cranes can build a tower and rise concrete made blocks up or down, so a single crane can be tested to perform alike job.

How a single crane can generate any energy moving concrete made block down ?
Modified on Aug. 24, 2019, 11:18 a.m. PDT
Tagged: Ideal Brain

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
It's nothing but PSH variation using Blocks of high density material instead of water. They use energy generated by other source e.g. Solar panels, wind etc to take the blocks at higher level. When there is demand, they will generate electricity by lowering the block, which in turn, turn the generator. So it acts as battery. They charge it by building / placing blocks at higher levels.
The shown model is not yet perfect. It has many problems which can make it failure. Maybe they have not disclosed everything in the model or they seriously need someone who can improvise it. I think I have perfected it in my head. I'll try to review their patent and if the perfection is missing, I can disclose the improvements to it.

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain

"It's nothing but PSH variation using Blocks of high density material instead of water.

Water can be pumped in continuous manner, making capacity of Water Battery not limited.
Blocks made of concrete must be lifted and placed at exact places, making such solution heavy challenge.

Water is more flexible, having no shape.

The problem is access to water turbines is limited to build PSH at Home


I am building now a desktop model of Energy Vault
to study:

1. Water Battery solution
2. Heavy cargo lifted up and lowered by a tower crane
3. Cargo can be made of concrete
4. Cargo can be made of a tank filled with water and lifted up the hill
5. Water from the tank in upper position, can be released to power up water turbine on the ground

I am studying if only a single motor can be used to lift cargo up and to recover potential energy turned into kinetic energy, while lowering a cargo, serving either as main motor or generator at the same time.

Winding drum is placed at ground level.
I need a clutch (electromagnetic) to release the drum to turn freely and motor turned generator or another generator mounted on the same axis to recover kinetic energy of the cargo lowered.

Frankly speaking I would like to buy school model of tower crane for tests (or a toy tower crane model)



The problem with water turbines is there are water turbines on a market.
The only small 10W water turbine comes from China.

What comes next is $Ts priced water turbine

let me know your opinion

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator

My advice to you is first "Do the calculations of each case on paper. Compare each others thoroughly". Secondly, If you know simulation, you can use that route too.

You will get answer in the first step only. No one builds the actual systems now a days, without doing calculations and / or simulations, neither you should do it, it's waste of your money.

That Vault project is evaluated by many people. When Softbank is promising investment, that means they have used their own team (or third party consultant) to evaluate that model completely.

Never build anything just in your head, always run calculations first, if numbers look good, then you can proceed further and build a prototype. Building a prototype without performing calculations is worst mistake any engineer shouldn't do.

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
thank you for your advice but you are not correct.

One day you claimed (talking about Energy Vault):

"It's nothing but PSH variation using Blocks of high density material instead of water.

Another day you claimed:

"That Vault project is evaluated by many people. When Softbank is promising investment, that means they have used their own team (or third party consultant) to evaluate that model completely.


So if Energy Vault is a variation of PSH and if Softbank has evaluated the Energy Vault, as reliable, worth of investing,
building a desktop model of Energy Vault is the best choice deserving every penny invested.

Engineers always build and test models, build scale machinery for tests since to run calculations one need to access design simulator engine, coming with libraries of real machinery, their performance data, like pumps, cranes, motors

Since there are no development tools on the market, prototypes take the leading place.

Building a prototype of Energy Vault or PSH is no risk, low cost, fast success operation.

I don't work for Softbank so I cannot speak for Softbank

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SoftBank_Group#SoftBank_Corp.

"The company is known for its leadership by founder Masayoshi Son.[10] It now owns operations in broadband; fixed-line telecommunications; e-commerce; internet; technology services; finance; media and marketing; semiconductor design; and other businesses.

Investing $1 in a virtual model is not the same as investing $1M+ in the same virtual model

Are you trying to suggest, Softbank invests huge money in v irtual projects, virtual models , not requesting a working model to be build, tested and evaluated first ?

Line of business of Softbank is not crossing renewable energy projects.

It exactly resembles me investors investing money in virtual projects by Elon Musk, called HyperLoop
But Elon was so kind to build 1km test rail underground to let investors verify all the risks and give up the project, not spending a single penny.

Ok, you are my competitor, so I build prototypes of PSH for Home and Desktop Energy Vault to succeed as soon as posssible
sincce this is a working prototype which matters and can be verified.

Interest in virtual projects is below zero.
Tagged: Ideal Brain

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
What is your purpose to build Energy Vault, which that company already have invented and proved to investors about it? Now it doesn't matter you prove it again by prototyping it. You have no idea what that inventor has done to make Softbank invest in it. Even if you prove your prototype, nothing is going to change.

Secondly, Computer Simulations can simulate anything you want. You don't need physical parts available in market. Computer make them in Simulation tools in 1 second and can perform any operation engineer wants. So stop thinking that tools are not available. It looks like you are not aware of the capabilities Computer Simulation offers.

Unless you don't post your numbers, this discussion is not going anywhere. Its your wishful thinking nature, which drives you. Every time I respond you, you come up with something different scenario and try to run away from main subject.

If you really want to build Energy vault for home use, then post your calculations which you did for Battery charging vs Energy Vault vs Wind or Solar or whatever other options you can think of.

Educate us why you chose particular direction in your prototyping, show us your calculations. People reading this thread is wasting there invaluable time and I don't want to contribute to that.

Global Innovator
Sorry my friend, but I really don't know what is your problem.

Read the name of this challenge once again:

"FAST Commissioning for Pumped-Storage Hydropower

exactly, my PSHforHome(SM) or PSHatHome(SM) - my service marks,
serve as a proof-of-concept of scaled PSH for private use, FAST Commissioned.

Energy Vault is byproduct of PSH, as stated by you earlier in this thread.

Since I build PSHforHome(SM) PSHatHome(SM) to serve and fit highly specific personal needs,
I build and test prototypes first.

1s simulation declared by you is easy job but to take pre-orders I need to present a number of working prototypes, which can be tested and touched.

If successful I can contact CEO at Softbank, asking for any interest to invest in PSHforHome(SM) , PSHatHome(SM) technologies.

Virtual simulations and calculations are great if have no plan to build a prototype or have no plans to build a prototype to serve as a proof-of-concept.

You are free to invest in HyperLoop
I invest in PSHatHome(SM) , PSHforHome(SM) family of products ( my service marks)

Herox platform doesn't serve for education.
Challenges are announced, published and all those interested may join a discussion.

I am sure, nobody but you is reading this thread, so no valuable time is wasted.

I am not asking you to contribute to my project since this is my private IP equity to be shared with authors of this challenge.

I develop my project as a solution to this Challenge, to meet market needs.

If your ingenious simulation engine can generate results and calculations within 1s, there is no need to do that job twice.

My projects are always community open and free source and anyone interested may join and support me.

But from time to time I need to make real spendings, to buy real hardware, to build proof-of-concept prototype made of purchased blocks.

Developing free-source, community open project I still invest a lot of money and workshop time personally and by my friends and hired workers.

I spent no less than 6 months on a new project to succeed and get any return.

Thank you for your interest and comments.

My "wishful thinking nature works fine as IP Generator.

Next month I have working prototype/s of PSHatHome(SM) PSHforHome(SM) for chat and sale at pocket money for early birds.

To succeed you need to trust in yourself 24/365

Real product > real money
Virtual product > virtual money

Ideal Brain
Okay good for you then, you seem to be next Trillionaire, world is waiting for.

Because no one will show interest in any product, unless they see numbers and comparison with competitive products.

You surely can build a PSH for home use. But what if, in market people can by 1 square meter Solar panel, 1 meter diameter windmill and a Battery bank all under 300$, which can serve there daily energy needs? Why would they go for your $1000 PSHatHome or ForHome version?

BTW EnergyVault is patented, so you cannot commercialize it, unless the inventor license you that technology. And Poor inventor, her forgot to look the Home usage of his invention. I pity on him. He should have mentioned that people can use it at home too. He missed that and now you can take benefit of that.

Let me know if you need Personal Assistant, when you become Trillionaire (I can't even spell it correctly).

Global Innovator
"Why would they go for your $1000 PSHatHome or ForHome version?

"if, in market people can by 1 square meter Solar panel, 1 meter diameter windmill and a Battery bank all under 300$, which can serve there daily energy needs?

I am not sure how did you get your calculations done by your ingenious simulator.

$300 battery bank for home use is called UPS - power system

surely, you can buy small power 1kW UPS at $300

1 square meter Solar panel at 20% efficiency can generate 200w power only

1 meter diameter windmill - rated 300W should be installed on rooftop at 10-20m height to catch any wind energy, since urban residences are affected by 300 days no-wind-syndrome

Smart residents select smart reliable solutions

Living off-the-grid it's not easy to recherge gel battery in your UPS power system in full every day

Contact UN agencies, WorldBank one day to learn more about smart solutions in renewables, developed for Small Island Developing States, for Antarctica

"Why would they go for your $1000 PSHatHome or ForHome version?

why not, having no other choice, if the price of PSHatHome or ForHome version can be cut to tiny $100, offered as Do-It-Yourself Open Source Project.

"Let me know if you need Personal Assistant

I have hundreds of smart Personal Assistants world-wide, making my life easier.

You are welcome.
Modified on Aug. 26, 2019, 11:48 a.m. PDT

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
Sir, Great numbers. I'm impressed by that.
How many products you have made till date and out of those, how many are successfully commercialized by you and not by your assistants?

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
Really funny question.
Herox challenges represent high level of virtualization of real technology problems, so it makes no sense to call them products.

You are free to join Herox challenges and win one or more.

If your name, by chance, is Miss Patricia,
you are welcome to join out team
Tagged: Ideal Brain

Ideal Brain
@Global Innovator
Great and thank you for the invite and I'm not Miss.
On serious note, it looks like you have produced 000 number of products in your whole life. I'm impressed with that number.
I think world should award you "The Genius of the 21st century".

Global Innovator
@Ideal Brain
You must be Miss Patricia, since you represent exact brain signatures, or you have a twin brain sister.

"you have produced 000 number of products in your whole life

Read terms by Herox once again.
There is no product activity on Herox.
Challenge is neither a product nor any product is sought.

BTW
Product stays for what ?
Tagged: Ideal Brain
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