Naturale Desalination

Water suction pressure - Vacuum clean

Simply use the water pressure at the bottom of the Reservoir to vacuum up the debris and deposit it at the bottom of the reservoir using a horizontally dug pipeline.
87 Replies

Petr Mík
I would like to inform you that your proposal is interesting. Thank you and have a nice day.

Petr Mík
I can somehow help your project?
Modified on July 18, 2020, 10:33 p.m. PDT

Naturale Desalination
Do tell. I am always interested in improving ideas and projects. I do realize that a roomba or Scuba type robot will allow the automation of the debris removal like a pool cleaner. Automation is great but not required to complete the task.

Saurabh Solunke
Since using a pipe to dug debris out , since the vacuum created will not allow all the debris to go out trough pipe as some debris are sticky will jam the pipe need some rather than a pipe , Vaccum idea is great but lot of challenges ahead

Petr Mík
@Saurabh Solunke
This is true, but if the Reservoir surface were mapped, this project could clean the surface in some places.
Modified on July 19, 2020, 10:27 p.m. PDT

Naturale Desalination
Saurabh - The sand and small rocks will keep the pipeline clean of material that would stick on the sides of the pipes. BUT, your point is well taken, and I agree that a liner (lay flat type hose) can be inserted and replaced as needed to keep the pipeline clean. Thanks for your comments.

Petr Mík
@ Naturale Desalization
Thanks for the better explanation.

7 Billion face masks
@Naturale Desalination
pros
Really simple
cons
one location
clogging, may be solvable with design and extra de-clogging mechanisms.
Catastrophic failure. Any failures in system lead to catastrophic failures of the whole dam structure via undermining. But this is no different than hydro-electric and is probably solvable.
The clean out and power delivery pipping cannot be the same system. Because one is designed to minimize solid content and the other is designed to maximize it.
If the shut off valves are jammed open with a log or anything then there is no way to shut it til the whole dam is empty.
If the cleanout system is designed with a 2ndary dam up stream or down stream is in place the sediment can be steered into lower catchment or water shed path to catchment dam. The sentiment would settle out to be harvested for cement manufacturing.
The settling zone could also be aggrigate seperation producing designs cascading from smaller to larger screening using the water flow as power and sediment mover. can be done without water nearby as well with traditional methods.
The catchment or tributary dam down stream is the sediment depository.
When not cleaning main dam, this 2ndary dam also becomes a pumped hydro resource.
Boom there it is.

7 Billion face masks
If the 2ndary dam elevation is above the main dam level water hiegth when cleanout season is in session, then even if the transfer tubes or valve clog, the dam will just equalize levels, and then the flow drop to near zero and safe removal of clogging is possible.
The 2ndary dam is drained to remove the sentiment, or enough to remove some of the sediment for shorter cleanout opportunities.
A sediment ladder can be added to the pumped hydro/sediment catcher dam.
This is a valid idea for both dams, and is a separate idea to propose.
If you like it lets team up.
For the main dam it cannot remove the sediment until it makes it to the Dam end of the lake (No pun here...)
If the main dam sediment system removes the sediment at the entrance to the dam this is much better, because the sediment is removed at the beginning before it fills the lower, deeper sections of the lake. This is the problem to be solved reservoir volume depletion via sediment.
So an upstream catchment Dam that allows for settling prior to main dam is a better option probably. But both are possible, upper and lower catchements, bth can be pumped hydro. When both are present the main dam can be full or empty or between and the upper and lower catchments can be both pumped hydro and one way hydro, bypassing some or all of the river flow.
A permanent sediment ladder can be built in the catchements.
upper being ideal for sediment removal and separation equipment added up to the areas ability to use the separated sediment products.
Rest must be dumped somewhere. This is true for any solution if not converted to added value products.
The sediment ladder or sediment wheels can be powered by water wheels or electrically driven.
Bonus! cement water shoots that divert water away from river for sediment control and sediment transport can be reused in the summer as water slides. This would make a win-win-win-win. That's your tax dollars being spent with extra added value add!
4 (5) wins:
1)sediment removal & transportation
2)upstream pumped hydro
3) Down stream pumped hydro
4) Fun from your tax dollars

Naturale Desalination
@ron davison
2nd dam appears to me to be not be needed. I think you are missing part of the concept. The drilling of horizontal pipeline is where one end is after the hydro pumps at the bottom of the dam and the other end is at the deepest part of the dams water. A valve is placed on both ends so that both need to be opened for water (suction) flow to occur and both can shut off the water flow. Dam integrity is not an issue because the drilling has a concrete liner (see oil drilling for examples). This solution can apply to all dams and reservoirs and is easily retrofitted. The suction material can be collected and sifted out before re-entering the river flow, but allow the nutrients to go back into river to help life down stream.

7 Billion face masks
They both can get jammed
The problem is at entrance to resevoir not the deep end.
90% of the volume reduction cannot be removed by removal at the dm. thus the ideas at the river mouth to resevour.
The 2nd dam is needed for energy storage and thus has another way to pay for itself.
It solve the clogged valve problem that has high risk associated with failure.
The 2nd dam is failsafe in terms of valves.
I would consider my ideas as springboard to a better solution than the final.
Simple and fail safe not simple...
thx for response, keep bouncing ideas and thoughts good,bad, ugly appreciated.

Naturale Desalination
@ron davison
Yes, this "Vacuum clean" solution is for the DEEP end not the shallow head waters. I do not understand your Clogging issue, when I use a Vacuum cleaner with just the wand or a shop vac they do not get clogged. When I shut off or reduce the pressure is releases the stuff that it sucked up in the vacuum nozzle. Water has more suction force than air, so I am really having a hard time seeing a clogging. Upstream would require a pump to help the suction take place, but if allowed a second dam is an alternative.
Modified on July 21, 2020, 3:55 p.m. PDT

Naturale Desalination
Clogging? - Lets make the inlet nozzle where the Reservoir is vacuumed at a smaller diameter that the pipeline. Example: pipeline is at 6" diameter and the nozzle only excepts 4" diameter.

Naturale Desalination
Drilling - If you are not real familiar with drilling the following is a good video to show how a basic hole is dug with casing to insure integrity of well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXdq65xzsus

Horizontal Well drilling has come a long way and is now quite accurate and a nice video to see this is animation actions is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TEyYRAu2Uk
Modified on July 21, 2020, 4:20 p.m. PDT

7 Billion face masks
@Naturale Desalination
That is a good solution to reduce the clogging.
Look at street colverts that go into pipes after a big rain.
Its the jamming of multiple long debry that can get through the openings.
This may be low occurrence, but if it has any chance of large damage as it will then it must be studied.
a second dam is not always possible in all situations, but it can be done for a good %.
Two thoughts to reduce the risk of the pipe to sand drainage land area idea.
1) a debry ladder in front of inlet. Multiple smaller openings below ladder for inlet to pipe.
2) A catch basin or basins to dump sand water into.
This is needed and implied by the concept in terms of needing volume for affluent.
(Cant just dump it down stream.)
The Volume translates into acres via depth of sediment filtration zones and time to peculate into ground.Rotaing between filling, perculating and bull dozing out the sand will be needed.
If a 2nd dam is part of the system The utilization of the peculation acrage will be higher, as it can be filled year round from pumped hydro dam cycling from pumped to sediment transfer functionality. This reduces land area significantly for the same volume of sediment removal.
Some new ideas, some toward your concept, the last toward a bigger integrated solution with renewable power curtailment capture revenue.

7 Billion face masks
@Naturale Desalination
That may be applicable for clean water pumping, but not for clogging issues.
They are not related.

7 Billion face masks
@Naturale Desalination
That may be applicable for clean water pumping, but not for clogging issues.
They are not related.
I hope you understand I am trying to make the concept more robust.
Please do not read it as a critique, even if it seems to you that I write that way.

Naturale Desalination
@7 Billion face masks
Add upstream Dam – This needs to be it’s own discussion topic. I do not see it as practical, due to cost and environmental issues and in USA/CA dams are being looked at being removed and new ones are really hard to add.

Clogging – If the input suction holes are small like using vacuum or like a steam cleaning tool clogging will not be an issue.! The sewage drain is not a relevant example because it does not have the water force 100% of the time for 100% of the drainage system and the water pressure and speed is drastically slower making it an extremely bad system to compare to.

Debris – is handled down stream of reservoir, so that it can be sorted out to allow the wanted nutrients to continue down stream while filter out larger sand, rocks and other larger debris as desired. The unwanted debris would be hauled deposited in desired locations.

7 Billion face masks
1) yes I lump many solution together.
That is because it is an integrated solution solving multiple challenges in one desgn.
Building a dam for removal of sediment is a non-starter, agreed.
But only by itself.
Pumped hydro is an answer in itself.
this is needed one or more zeros of societies needs than sediment.
The new dam:
1) does not change the reservoir area necessarily, ideally re-allocates the areas into smaller bodies of water.
2) removes the need of new reservoirs between 10:1 and 100:1, because the pumped hydro equivalent power output takes that much less area than a new one way dam does.
So your critique on this point is actually a positive for the design.
3) The pumped hydro revenue pays for the dam, the sediment removal is a add on win.
4) Allows for cleaning out either reservoir with water steering of the river flow around top dam or into top dam and remove flow to river mouth of main dam for cleaning mouth sediment.

Clogging:
Perhaps I am overstating how hard it is to effectively keep the pipe and valves clear.
But not the catastrophic environmental risk.
If it can be driven toward zero then this can work, but not if it can't.
two guys in a comment section cannot solve that equation.
8 experts in the field of hydro design and safety oversite expertise are needed.
I design safety critical electronics, I do not work in the hydro field, yet.
However the same rules apply.


Not saying it is unsolvable, just that your design cannot go forward without addressing it adequately in my opinion. I believe it is worthy of refinement.
What I am envisioning is that the entrance must be movable, and have a floating barge or support platform to bring up the to near the surface. Then it can flow down into the drain system pipe drilled in nearby ridge of dam.
The barge could catch the big stuff, before entering into the pipe and valving susceptible to damage from debri other than sand and small rock.
If the barge has a shut off and can also allow fresh top water to be gated in to clean out the pipe prior to the critical valves are closed this will reduce catastrophic fail significantly.
If the barge can be moved to where the water table is shallow even if all valves failed the barge would just hit ground and with the fresh water valve open can allow water and/or air into tube. The lake would stop draining then.
with the barge on ground the suction would pull in air instead of continuing to creating the deep water suction. This would also work floating perhaps if the fresh water inlet can be moved above and below water level of the barge.
The air injection could also help clean the long tube of stubborn patches of debri along its length.
The sediment in most cases cannot be dumped into the river in great quantities.
That is an environmental disaster for the wildlife in the river.
Only the needed sediment over time can be dumped into the rivers.
this is been decided in court in the past I believe.
So a need for settling areas for the water-sediment streams to dump the excess sediment is a must I think.
A ladder system would reduce the amount of water used, elevate the sediment so that it can be sorted with normal gravity- size sorting equipment. The ladder system could even do some of the sorting, with different sized basket screen sizes, cycling the sediment a certain volume at a time so that the big stuff gets removed 1st, then the baskets that come around on the "rock ski lift chair"

7 Billion face masks
Also with the flow stopped and the pipe opening in air, the tube and valves can be serviced
Post Your Reply
Let these people know about your message